Debunking gotquestion.org PART 4
Hare Krishna!
All Glories To Guru And Gauranga!
The arguments can be found here.
Pūrvapakṣa 1: Vaishnavism is one of several major interpretations of Hinduism. Hinduism is an extremely broad, varied category of faith. Under that umbrella of common Hindu ideas are a vast range of applications, including some that contradict each other on fundamental ideas. Vaishnavism is among the more popular “denominations” of Hinduism, with its own distinctive ideas about spirituality and morality.Vaishnavism is distinguished mainly for its doctrine regarding avatars. An avatar in Hinduism is a physical incarnation or form of a particular deity. In the case of Vaishnavism, the supreme deity is Vishnu, but Vishnu is believed to have taken on many forms—avatars—throughout history. These incarnations have different names, appearances, and stories, but are all believed to be expressions of the same ultimate god: Vishnu. This doctrinal approach to avatars also sets Vaishnavism apart from other forms of Hinduism in that it implies that there is ultimately a “personal” deity to whom human beings can relate.
Refutation: It's this broken umbrella called as "Hinduism" which is a modern concoction. Vaishnava dharma is based on Veda, which are accepted as shabda pramana. Hence, Vedanta= Vaishnavism. "Physical incarnation" etc terminology is wrong, avatara is simply assuming a shuddha sattva body(pure spiritual body) and descending down Nor is the doctrine of a personal God merely with the purpose so that humans are able to "relate" to it. As per Vedanta, all jivas are sentient, characterised by sat-chit-ananda and are seshas(parts) of Brahman in their essential nature, so they naturally serve Brahman. That Brahman has a shuddha sattva body, a bluish form and decorates by ornaments who are nitya suris(elevated living entities). Prakriti(matter/nature) and jivas(living entities) both exist to please Brahman. And that Brahman as per the words of Rishis in shastra is unanimously identified as Vishnu.
Is Vishnu a Hindu god?
Bhishma says in Vishnu Sahasranama
braHmaNyam sarva-dharmaj~nam lokAnAm kIrti-vardhanam
loka-nAtham mahad-bhUtam sarva-bhUta-bhavodbhavam. He is the protector of the brahmA and the veda. He is the knower of all Dharmas. He is the enhancer of the reputation of all beings. He is the supreme Brahman. Out of Him all beings and the whole of samsAra have come out.
Vishnu is the knower of all the religions, he is the primeval philosopher, who is the source of all the philosophies, that exist, He is the source of all the intelligence and the forgetfulness, which gives rise to many ideas, from within the minds of different people, according to their desire to know god, in different ways, as god is all encompassing.
it is said in one of the Vaishnava āgamās:
आकाशात् पतितं तोयं यथा गच्छति सागरम् ।
सर्वदेवनमस्कारं केशवं प्रतिगच्छति ॥As raindrops falling from the sky go to the same ocean, obeisances unto all devas(the idea of god in any religion) completely goes to Keshava.
Bhagavad Gita 5.29
The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attain peace from the pangs of material miseries.
The lord is the indwelling soul of all living entities, and he is the knower of all and the one who makes arrangements for all, he wouldn't let the souls go to hell for worshipping or believing in other religions. All the ideas arise due to one's intelligence, or forgetfulness, therefore,the idea of eternal damnation due to those ideas, are asinine, as the lord himself is the source of intelligence and forgetfulness.
I am seated in everyone’s heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas. Bhagavad gita 15.15
Pūrvapakṣa 2: Vaishnavism is sometimes described as “monotheistic,” since it considers Vishnu to be the supreme god. However, this sect of Hinduism generally believes there are other deities, such as Kali and Shiva. The emphasis on one main god while accepting the existence of other gods makes Vaishnavism a form of monoltary or henotheism.
Refutation: We believe that all the demigods and goddesses are jiva atmas (living entities), created by lord and after their death, who depend on krishna for salvation,
"brahmasheshhasuparNeshashakrasUryaguhAdayaH |
sarve xarA axarA tu shrIrekA tatparo hariH" |
-iti skAnde || 440||
440. The Skanda-purana says: 'Brahma, Sesa, Suparna, Isha, Sakra, Surya, Guha and others are all ksaras. Only Sri(Maha Lakshmi) is aksara. Hari is beyond both.
The Parama-sruti has the following: 'Brahma, Siva and all others beginning with the gods are Ksaras, because their bodies are perishable, Lakshmi is aksara because her body is imperishable. Hari is above both these, because he is infinite in all his glorious attributes like independence, power, knowledge and bliss. They are all under his control. He, all by himself, brings about the creation, subsistence, destruction, regulation, illumination, ignorance and bondage of all ksaras and the liberation of sattivika jivas. To the aksara he grants manifestation, subsistence, regulation, illumination and eternal bliss. The supreme Hari alone is the source of the activities of all these. There is no one else who brings about his creation etc. He is free from all imperfection.
Hence there are no independent God and different deities are subordinate to Visnu as per Vaisnavism. Thus the Vaisnavism is monotheism only and doesn't believes in existence of more than one God
Pūrvapakṣa 3: Vaishnavists are known for wearing a symbol, called a tilak, painted on the forehead and bridge of the nose to form a U-shape. This sect places a strong emphasis on chanting the names of Vishnu’s various avatars. Vaishnavism also believes that the Hindu scriptures should be interpreted literally, not metaphorically, insofar as this is possible. Among the more famous of Vishnu’s avatars, in the West, is Krishna—Krishnaism is a further sub-division of Vaishnavism. Vaishnavism also reveres many historical figures within Hinduism, in a manner somewhat parallel to the Roman Catholic veneration of saints. Refutation: That is not a mere symbol, it is called the 'ūrḍva pundra'. The greatness of ūrḍva pundra is described by Madhvacharya in his Krishnamrita Maharnava as follows........ The Urdhva Pundra on the forehead should be straight like a stick, beautiful and should have a gap/perforation/opening in the middle. That gap is my residence! One who is unclean; One who does not practice any rituals; One who commits sins in his mind; Such people too become pure if they put on the Urdhva Pundra every day.
The scriptures should be interpreted as,
rūḍhim eva samāśritya vibhajyārthān yathākramam vidoṣaguṇapūrtyarthaṁ viṣṇau yogārthamānayet paścād eva yathāyogam itareṣv api sannayet “Having distinguished the senses of a word relying only on its meanings in common usage, one should, in proper order, bring in the etymological meaning, which is Lord Viṣṇu's absence of faults and possession of all qualities. Only after that does one bring together the derivative meaning suitable to the other.” »Ṛg-veda-saṁhitā
etena sarve vyākhyātā vyākhyātāḥ “All [words in the scriptures] should be interpreted to agree with the explanation [that the Supreme Brahman is the original cause].” »Vedānta-sūtra 1.4.28
tat tu samanvayāt “But that [Brahman is the sole topic of discussion in the Vedas] is confirmed by the scriptures.” »Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.4 Krishna is not an avaṭār of vishnu, but vice versa, and an ācharyā worship is totally different from the Roman Catholic veneration of saints. Worship of guru can be understood here. Pūrvapakṣa 4: By some measures, Vaishnavism represents the majority of the world’s Hindus. Hinduism is a notoriously difficult religion to categorize, classify, or study, since it accepts such a vast range of conflicting views. Depending on the study, it is estimated that as many as two thirds of the world’s Hindus are part of the Vaishnavist tradition. The main spiritual concerns with Vaishnavism are the same as those for Hinduism in general. There is no factual, logical, or historical basis for any of their beliefs, in contrast to the Bible, which is supported by both reason and history. The Hindu scriptures are blatantly self-contradictory, which is something Hinduism readily admits. This presents a problem for those attempting to understand the faith. Vaishnavism, as with all strains of Hinduism, also accepts the false ideas of karma and reincarnation, and it denies the realities of heaven and hell. Refutation: First of vaishnavism is not hindu, it is vedantist, it is not self contradictory if understood with the help of a guru, athāpy ācāryamānā sā nāstikatvaṃ vitanvatī kṣipet kalpayitāraṃ taṃ duṣṭare narakotkare ‘’One who considers this body of scriptural evidence, the conduct of great authorities, and famous historical accounts to be simply exaggerations reveals his faithless mentality. His fabrication of such an atheistic position will cause him to fall into a dreadful hell.’’ (Brhad Bhagavatmrta 2.2.199) This clears the fact that one must be faithful enough, to understanding the scriptures, so as the avoid any contradiction, krishna says in the bhagavad gita, To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me. Bg. 10.10.
there is separate branch of study called Nyaya in Vedic study, which deals with logic only. Hence to claim that there is no logic in Vedic tradition shows utter ignorance of the claimant.
Further, there are innumerable historical facts about Vedic religion. The presence of ancient deities, cities, temples, etc are more than proof of lineage going back atleast 5000 years, way before Christianity had even seen the light of the Sun
it can be claimed that Bible itself talks about Karma(consequences of actions) and without reincarnation God becomes a merciless dictator who throws some of His subjects into suffering (like birth defects etc) with no fault of their own(John 3.18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God., we can see the similarity between krishna consciousness and this verse, whosoever is initiated or takes refugee under krishna, he does not face the consequences o his karmic actions.) . Hence without reincarnation, Christianity doesn't makes sense.
And this also confirms the presence of hell and heaven.
“There is one mantra called ‘Nārāyaṇā’. There is a tongue at one’s disposal. Yet people fall into hell. This is a wonder!” -Śrī Kṛṣṇāmṛta Mahārṇava Hare krishna!
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